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#11 10-15-2008 02:47:43

Queen of the Lilliputians
Gone fishing
From: Maine
Registered: 02-03-2008
Posts: 3907
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Re: Zeitgeist

Ok I'll sink my teeth into what you wrote after a few more cups of coffee lol.


But to start- I completely disagree with you.  I do not believe they were suggesting any such thing re: anarchic utopian society.  And sorry- because I disagree with this basic premise from your post, I disagree with your statement that if I think about it, I will see that this is what they are describing.  I don't agree, and no amount of thought will change that. I will however be happy to rewatch this movie today to see if I feel they are giving 'instructions' for what sort of society they think we should have.  I simply did not get that out of this movie.  I did not see that they were setting up any sort of blueprint for our society.


What I took from it is this:  people deserve the truth.  And that, as people, we should have the right to reject or accept these things.  That we should be informed completely, 100%, and allowed to decide what we want, or don't want.  I do not believe the authors here meant that each man only worry about himself and, being intrisically good, he would choose to bond together with butterflies and fairy wings.  I'm a little irritated that you suggest you know how people feel about what society should be like.  I think you are dead wrong there.  Given a choice, I find it hard to believe people would choose a communist society over anything else.  I, again, do not buy your reasoning there whatsoever.  Given a choice, although I do not agree that this was what this movie was about, I think the VAST MAJORITY of people WOULD choose Anarchy over Dictatorship.  HOWEVER this is merely my opinion, and in no way do I offer this up as fact.  Does tracking my every move to keep me and my family 'safe' appeal to me?  No frickin' way. 

Again- I believe (s)he was pointing out the vast pyramid of lies we are all living on.  We like to pretend that there is Freedom of speech in this country, that our media provides us with the truth in all it's entirety.  That simply is not true.  Media is skewed one way or another, money changes hands, and stories disappear.  And if that isn't enough, we flooded with propaganda to help us along to believe it all, and to blind us to whatever intelligent conclusions we might have had.  They lead us on a Merry-go-round of emotions, like a dysfunctional relationship where we believe that, even though we are abused, we will stay because we LOVE them and must've deserved it, all the while letting us believe that their decisions are best, and only for our own good.  This conclusion is based on the fact that it took me.. quite awhile to figure out what the heck the first third of the movie (the religion part) had to do with the second (the 9/11 part).  By the bank stuff I had figured it out lol. 


As for backing up this stuff with concrete evidence- well, I am in the process of doing that for myself.  At this point, I have already reviewed the evidence from Physicist Stephen Jones, as well as cruising around watching countless hrs of other evidence related to 9/11.  I will not investigate the stuff re: the bible/basic religious beliefs because, imho, the end result of it is obvious and I completely agree with the movie's conclusions.

I will, at some point, also investigate the financial info provided in this.. once I'm done being totally appalled at the maze of lies surrounding 9/11, and the implications of that.  At this point I have found additional evidence not provided in this video.  And even to idiotic laypeople like us it should be obvious that there is no way 3 skyscrapers could fall without damaging the surrounding buildings.. unless it was a professional job involving explosives/chemicals which should be easily traceable.

As for the education stuff- I'm not sure on that.  I don't know how I feel about what this movie presents, because I do see the stuff that my ds brings home from school, and he is learning much more in the 1st grade than I did.  HOWEVER- I did have a discussion with a friend 2 days ago, totally unrelated to this, who told me her generation (16-24yos) are considered the DUMB generation.  She also was telling me about some of the stuff they are using to teach our children in schools, and I was forced to shake my head and wonder who the idiots in charge were.  So maybe this movie did have a point there.

And I don't care who you are- if you think having the wool pulled over your eyes, and blindly trusting ANYONE to do what is in your best interest.. well then you truly are one of the lemmings.  We are all on our own when it comes to protecting our families.  Unless, of course, you happen to be one of the almighty rich who can buy favor.  Then you can trust whomever you give the biggest payout to mad


Meghan

Ok- changed my mind.  Read your post Steve.  I believe my follow up post sums the majority of it up nicely.  smile  With the exception of this one point, and perhaps you and I simply took this movie from different angles on this:  We all know money is worthless paper.  Exchangeable for... whatever.  It is simply a representation of goods owed.  That didn't bother me in the slightest.  WHAT DID BOTHER ME:  All of this money is owned by INDIVIDUALS.  These people aren't in it for us, they aren't in the money system to keep everything stable.  They are in it for themselves.  And.. Absolute power (including in the money system) corrupts absolutely.  That is horrifying. And one more reason to stuff my cash (if I had any to stuff lol) under my mattress, and perhaps to barter more for the things we need. 
      Even prior to watching this movie, I had already decided that our society is WAAAAAAY too dependent on such things as: daily trips to the grocery store, electricity, and the like.  I have been working on our homestead for a few years now, which includes the chickens and the goats to provide milk, meat, and eggs.  Members of my family feel I am paranoid, other members feel that I am spot on and that we will be supporting the others at some point.  Whatever you believe about any of this- you have to make plans for your own family in case it is necessary.  I won't stockpile 3 years worth of water big_smile but I will ensure that we will not go hungry no matter what happens.  We all like to pretend that the great U.S. of A. has been here forever- simply not true.  And as you pointed out, governments.. no ENTIRE COUNTRIES come and go, are conquered and refaced.  People die, new people move in.  I'm sure the Native Americans thought they would be here forever.  Do what you need to to ensure that, should things get worse, your family will be ok.  And if I'm full of crap, when we are all on our death beds, I give you permission to say, "I told you so." tongue


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#12 10-15-2008 04:18:59

AKA Steve
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Re: Zeitgeist

Queen of the Lilliputians wrote:

Ok I'll sink my teeth into what you wrote after a few more cups of coffee lol.
I'm a little irritated that you suggest you know how people feel about what society should be like.  I think you are dead wrong there. 
Given a choice, I find it hard to believe people would choose a communist society over anything else.  I, again, do not buy your reasoning there whatsoever.  Given a choice, although I do not agree that this was what this movie was about, I think the VAST MAJORITY of people WOULD choose Anarchy over Dictatorship.  HOWEVER this is merely my opinion, and in no way do I offer this up as fact.  Does tracking my every move to keep me and my family 'safe' appeal to me?  No frickin' way.

This is far as I got, It will take time to read the rest, but I will start here.
My guess in which political system most people would choose, is simply a guess, and makes no difference to me, I did not state a personal opinion on my choice, I just gave what had been my experience on how others felt, this is pure conjecture and not backed up by any facts, and mostly irrelevant; however,
I must point out that communism and socialism are Not totalitarian dictatorships by nature, nor do they infringe on the rights of their population.
The concept of Communism and socialism, began as a way of wealth distribution to all people, it was intended to avoid dictatorship, not create it.
Unfortunately, the system became corrupt in Russia, and the countries that copied their model did so by including the corrupt aspects of their system.
If the phrase "some animals are more equal then others" doesn't mean anything to you, may I suggest the book, "animal farm" big_smile
I know that sometimes I really erk you meg, sorry about that.
I need to read the rest of what you said, but more then that, I really need to go to bed ... DOH.


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#13 10-15-2008 04:43:41

AKA Steve
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Re: Zeitgeist

Added to the above:
I think one of the biggest problems is that, social economic, governmental systems, get thought up by intellectual dreamers (like Jefferson), but are implemented by the corrupt and power hungry.


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#14 10-15-2008 05:29:02

Queen of the Lilliputians
Gone fishing
From: Maine
Registered: 02-03-2008
Posts: 3907
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Re: Zeitgeist

AKA Barg wrote:

Added to the above:
I think one of the biggest problems is that, social economic, governmental systems, get thought up by intellectual dreamers (like Jefferson), but are implemented by the corrupt and power hungry.

Amen to that thought, Steve!

As for the rest of it.. I'm thinking we didn't watch the same movie rotflol rotflol

Have a great... um.. night big_smile


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#15 10-15-2008 08:13:03

Queen of the Lilliputians
Gone fishing
From: Maine
Registered: 02-03-2008
Posts: 3907
Website

Re: Zeitgeist

Ok Steve- just finished rewatching the movie.

And I think I see where you got the idea that this movie is suggesting a Utopia but..

I simply don't draw that conclusion.  Yes, it ends with the idea that there needs to be love of each other, not love of power.  But I guess what I took (and still take) from that is that they are saying if we stand together, we can overcome anything.  They show pictures of peaceful protestors, not war-mongerers.  They certainly don't suggest we start bombing anything, or killing people.  Maybe it's easier for me, being a Wiccan, since I believe all life is connected anyway.  I do not feel there is an US and a THEM, and I hate pigeonholing people, or slapping them with labels.  To me, standing together to say, "this isn't right, and we will not go along with you," makes complete sense.

On a more.. critical note, I do not completely like the way this film was put together.  I love the message- I think it is fantastic.  But it doesn't flow very well for me.  Sort of like that movie "I Am Legend".. LOVED the movie, but felt someone else had written the ending on it, since it sputtered, then started again (good ending just.... came from nowhere). 

Anyway, lol.  Now I've watched it twice, and taken down all the names I could, so off to do some research!


Meghan


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#16 10-15-2008 11:18:46

thndrdancr
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From: Lincoln, Nebraska
Registered: 12-13-2007
Posts: 2699

Re: Zeitgeist

Ok now Steve...
Can you condense that into three lines for ME?  rotfl


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#17 10-15-2008 01:43:16

AKA Steve
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Registered: 11-29-2007
Posts: 4215
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Re: Zeitgeist

At the end of the movie they suggested that everyone remove their money for the big three banks, sell their stock, and if they work for them to quite their job.
Although I doubt the movie has enough influence over enough people to actually make this happen, if they were successful, they would ensure the collapse of our financial system; especially given the current situation.

If the system did collapse, utterly and completely, consider what the results could be.
If you believe all of the things in the movie, what might be the reaction of such a collapse by those currently in charge?
I won't bother giving you my opinion, I'll leave that to your imagination.


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#18 10-15-2008 01:50:13

Queen of the Lilliputians
Gone fishing
From: Maine
Registered: 02-03-2008
Posts: 3907
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Re: Zeitgeist

AKA Barg wrote:

At the end of the movie they suggested that everyone remove their money for the big three banks, sell their stock, and if they work for them to quite their job.
Although I doubt the movie has enough influence over enough people to actually make this happen, if they were successful, they would ensure the collapse of our financial system; especially given the current situation.

If the system did collapse, utterly and completely, consider what the results could be.
If you believe all of the things in the movie, what might be the reaction of such a collapse by those currently in charge?
I won't bother giving you my opinion, I'll leave that to your imagination.

Steve,

HUH?  I've watched this movie twice now.  Neither time did I hear any mention of pulling our money out of banks or quitting our jobs.

  Can you give me a time count on that please?

Jill-

  I feel the movie is about the lies we are told.  Additionally, I feel that the movie is calling each of us to open our eyes and see it.  I further feel that the movie (in the last few minutes) is saying we should join together and refuse to be misled anymore. I do not feel that it is calling for any of the things Steve is suggesting, although I am certainly willing to rewatch the referenced minutes a third time tongue

  What's your take?

Meghan


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#19 10-15-2008 06:13:57

broom_hilda
Banned
Registered: 03-02-2008
Posts: 1383

Re: Zeitgeist

WOW !!!  My mind is mush from reading this...LOL.

I have to say, I agree with Meghan on most of this.  I do not get from the movie that they are trying to create a Utopia or whatever society.  What I took from the movie is that they are presenting information for people to dig for the truth. I believe that they are trying to get across that we are being fed what information the government wants us to know, and that a lot of it is lies...which we all know that anyway.  IF, in fact, the government is responsible for 911, then the American people need to stand up and fight back.

IF, what they say about the Federal Reserve is correct and that they caused the Great Depression intentionally, they definitely have the power to do so again, and with the way the economy is failing now, I find it extremely disturbing that this might be where we are heading now.

I am the type of person who does not blindly believe everything I am fed.  Whenever somebody tries really hard to get me to believe something, I usually do just the opposite.  I figure they have something to hide and I try and dig for the truth.  Just because this movie says these things are so, I'm not taking that completely at face value.  I'm like Meghan, I'm doing some research.

Personally, I believe our government is the most corrupt on this planet.  I believe this from things that I have seen, read, etc., over many years.  I DO believe we need a change and I DO believe that if a complete overthrow of the government is the way to accomplish that, than so be it.  Radical?  Maybe...but what the government has done, and continues to do, is appalling and inexcusable.

We may never know the whole truth, but I DO believe that a lot of what thay movie present IS, in fact, truth, and I DO believe the American people need to stand up and take back what this country was intended to be.

Last edited by broom_hilda (10-15-2008 06:14:50)

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#20 10-15-2008 07:46:35

AKA Steve
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Registered: 11-29-2007
Posts: 4215
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Re: Zeitgeist

First, it was suggested that somehow maybe we watched different movies, and based on some of what you said broom, I think that may be the case; we might have watched different versions or something, because some of what your talking about, I never saw, and as meg has said, some of what I saw, she didn't see.

Assuming that most of it was the same, I want to make clear my position on 90% of the movie; I don't dispute the claims.
I am not saying that I think they are true, I am saying that I don't know, and the one comment I made was that, I couldn't take the word of a single individual, without corroboration; that doesn't mean that I think he is wrong or that he is lying, it means that I find the claims interesting, but not conclusive.

I guess I'm gonna have to take a look and find out why there seems to be a discrepancy in what we saw, the movie I saw said nothing at all about the great depression,; so I'm scratchin my head.


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